The Future of IoT: Unpacking eSIM SGP.32 with Industry Experts

Join Antony Savvas and industry leaders Niall Strachan, Chief Commercial Officer from Pelion, and Steffen Sorrell, Chief of Research from Kaleido Intelligence, as they delve into the transformative impact of IoT eSIM SGP.32. Learn about this groundbreaking GSMA specification that is setting new standards for profile availability, interoperability, and security in eSIM devices. 

Transcript

[00:00:00] Antony: Hi, welcome to our latest Internet of Things and communication service podcast. This is Antony Savvas, international technology editor, accompanied by esteemed industry guests. Today, the main topic we're talking about is IoT eSIM SGP.32. Maybe not a catchy title, but an important one all the same. It's a new GSMA specification, which among other things, increases profile availability, interoperability, and security. Making managing eSIM devices across different networks easier. That's what it promises. And it enables an almost immediate digital subscriber connection, speeding up the go to market timescale, whilst also opening up new opportunities in unreachable markets.

Hopefully the guests will actually confirm what I've just said there. Overall, there will be simpler eSIM IoT functionality for most new deployments across multiple sector use cases, such as logistics, smart metering, and transport. But we'll also be talking about other key developments in the communications industry, and we'll finish our discussion with some more light hearted industry news that has surfaced.

Today's podcast is sponsored by Pelion. Pelion provides cellular connectivity for any device across any cellular standard, wherever you are in the world, it promises to give you the best data rates across the most reliable mobile networks and put you in control of every single connection. It offers flexible data plans for global cellular coverage across 4G LTE, 5G, CAT-M and NBIoT and that's Pelion.com. To confirm, I'm Antony Savvas, I've been covering the networking telecom space continuously for the last 25 years, working as a writer and editor for leading international technology, magazines, and websites, I'm currently a contributing editor with both IoT Now and Communication Service Provider title the Vanilla Plus, a sister title of IoT Now.

My guests today are Niall Strachan from Pelion and Steffen Sorrell from Kaleido Intelligence. So Niall, what's your job at Pelion and what do you do there?

[00:02:11] Niall: Well, I'm chief commercial officer at Pelion, actually one of the co-founders from the business from quite a long time ago, and I really handle essentially our product management, commercial operations and strategic suppliers that we for selling connectivity services our customers. 

[00:02:30] Antony: Okay, and Steffen, who are Kaleido and what do you do over there?

[00:02:34] Steffen: Yeah, thanks Antony for having us on today. So I'm also, a founder. I work for a company called Kaleido Intelligence. We're a research firm. Focused on the mobile connectivity ecosystem. So we look at, how things are developing across the roaming landscape, both on sort of business and data travel, as well as IoT.

And that's, IoT is where my responsibility lies. So looking at what the developments in the market are, especially around topics like eSIM, connectivity management, private networks, and so on.

[00:03:08] Antony: Before we go on to main topic today, discuss new IoT. eSIM spec. We'll talk about something else. 

Niall, I understand you want talk about changes and enterprise bias behavior. In consuming connectivity. 

Is that right? 

[00:03:23] Niall: Yeah, absolutely. Think our market has seen quite a large shift in technology space, regulatory space, the types of products are being brought to market, but it also with IoT changing from being an emerging technology to being just part of a business's digital transformation, it changes the buyer's perception of what connectivity is, how they should buy it, what they're looking for, the types of buyers are looking to procure from.

And it means that the conversations with, with customers and buyers have changed dramatically in last three to five years.

[00:03:57] Antony: And broadly speaking, what sort of connectivity you'll be talking about where these changes impact. 

[00:04:03] Niall: Yeah. I mean, mainly it's in the cellular connectivity world. You know, I would say that that statement generally is quite broad to what I said about changing within connectivity. I'd probably agree across all verticals, but for where Pelion play and operate is the cellular connectivity space. So, you know, we provide global connectivity across a multitude of offerings on our platform for enterprise and OEM clients, mainly located in Europe and North America, We're deploying globally. So we've seen, um, a lot of buyers coming to us from technological change, such as 2G, 3G sunsetting, low power wide area networking being deployed on mass. 5G becoming more available.

And as these new technologies come around, you find new products being launched, new business lines being created with different, personalities and buyer personas, essentially. So I like to sort of say that, the SaaS world, you know, like. Salesforce large SAS businesses really brought ahead the modern days are product management function.

And then you look at the IoT world or maybe OEMs or manufacturing worlds, the buyers used to be operational people, you know, they used to be cost focused financial people, or maybe even a technical buyer who's been tasked to fixing a problem. And now we see it be much more product led, buying decisions, which really take into consideration not only the technology, but the regulatory reasons for what countries deploying and longevity of products, the operational costs and managing in sort of PNL fashion that a true product manager would, would look as their deployment and those conversations really have changed towards broader topics, you know, security, understanding how to manage security on mass for long term deployments rather than maybe five years ago when someone would say, I want connect 10,000 things, give me a price, then they would worry about everything else later. 

[00:05:58] Antony: So, Steffen, what Niall was saying there, is that you're seeing in the market as well?

[00:06:03] Steffen: Yeah. I think, And hope Niall will, will agree to me. think it sticks to, you know, how the enterprise buyer is changing. think what we're seeing is an increase in the level sophistication and understanding that, enterprises have of the market. So for example, Niall talks about, regulation, as a, as a key aspect, you what I mean?

Well, we've recently, and Pelion was one of the sponsors of this. It, uh, conducted a very large enterprise survey of, IoT connectivity among enterprises. 800 different enterprises from 5 different verticals responding. And when you look across the verticals, so you've got transportation. You've got energy and utilities, but in, manufacturing, healthcare, smart cities, every single one of those verticals, when we asked them, things like what are the top five factors, what you look for in IoT connectivity Every single one of them put, that they wanted to ensure that if they had a multinational solution, for example, it had to be safe in the long-term from regulatory or commercial restrictions. So they're really thinking about, you it's showing a, the longevity of their deployment showing the financial viability of that deployment because you if that regulation changes.

And three years down the line, you've got, you know, suddenly change contracts, swap a whole load of SIMs out. That's enormous cost. And one of the reasons, I think, what we've seen in the past, that you see all kinds of stats about how, what portion of IoT projects fail, and a lot of it, I think, is related to the connectivity itself.

And I think that's one reason why these enterprise buyers are coming in and thinking about productivity at a much earlier stage than they were, perhaps maybe four or five years ago. 

[00:07:48] Antony: So, Niall, is price a major factor here or are customers also considering things like scalability and flexibility too. 

[00:07:58] Niall: I think in any buying scenario, price is factor, right? I think if you're not in the ballpark of where the price should be for competitive products in a region, you shouldn't really be able to entertain or win that business. What I would say is that certain markets and regions are more price focused than others.

So the US, for instance, have done an excellent job of essentially putting, um, their arms around the market and saying, you know, this is where our pricing should sit. And they've, they've probably had quite a low amount part of erosion of their, of their revenue per unit. The UK for instance, has become very price focused market and has become, I wouldn't say a race the bottom.

But new pricing appearing always disrupts the conversation with buyers. And we see that little bit Europe as well. There are disruptive models coming out that change that. But generally, when we see that conversation customers, price isn't the buying decision. Price is more of gating conversation of, are you actually a competitive player?

 Can you back up what you say you do. When you actually converse with customers and find out what they're really interested in, what they're caring around, they're really looking to, go to that sort of longevity of deployment, as you say, multi region or 10 year plus deployments.

How do they protect themselves from change? What services do they need to think about? Do they need a sort of consultancy style approach to guide them to selecting the right tools and what they do. But then also looking at custom support packages, device onboarding, provisioning, maybe the hardware itself security solutions that will enable secure transit from A to B.

And these are all. Key components are not thought about from a price perspective. They're always layered on as the value add on top of that to understand how to really allow them to differentiate their products and service the market by backing their supply chain with a really effective connectivity player. 

[00:09:50] Antony: Steffen, I mean, are there going to be continuous changes in buying behaviour for the foreseeable future? Or will things slow in that regard, you know, maybe in the medium term? You mentioned some research as well, before that was interesting, but how you actually see these changes evolving? Over medium term.

[00:10:09] Steffen: I think ultimately what the buyer is looking for is first of all, you know, what we've just talked about that, long term reliability of any solution that they're purchasing, as Niall said, you know, price is always a factor, but it's not the biggest factor, especially, you know, we're seeing a commoditisation the baseline connectivity across the industry now.

So, there are a lot of other factors that come into play. First of all, there's that long term reliability, and I think one of the critical things that is, starting to come into play, we've seen that over the last couple years, we've done these enterprise surveys, is that ultimately, enterprises are struggling with, navigating the complexity of the industry, when you look at, for example, automotive OEMs, it's so uncommon that they have to go to many different suppliers in the market.

 To support their, their rollouts, on an international scale. And that makes things hugely difficult to provide a homogenous service. So, you know, one of the key things that stood out from this year's survey is the fact that a lot of enterprises feel they have to go to many different providers to secure those international deployments.

And then they're looking at different contracts, different SLAs, different platforms, different integrations. And this, it's not directly linked to the price, but it all adds up, it makes things more expensive. makes things more time consuming, but ultimately I think really the goal and how we'll see that evolve is that buyers going to look more and more towards providers who can help them manage several different things along the chain, smooth that path to actually getting their devices out into the field and start generating revenue. 

[00:11:46] Antony: And Niall, appropriately perhaps a service provider question I mean how our service providers addressing these custom demands and are some of them having problems in satisfying customer needs.

[00:11:57] Niall: Yeah. I mean, if you, look at traditional buyers, the incumbents are like mobile network operators, right? Going to a Vodafone, a Verizon, a Deutsche Telekom. And what we find is for complex multi region, multinational deployments, as Steffen said, the end user has to take a plethora of agreements, different platforms, SLA support systems, everything becomes, a total cost of ownership becomes quite high very quickly. What we see is that actually mobile network operators are actually slightly stepping back. Well, some of them are stepping back from the direct enterprise IRT, moving to supporting wholesale, MVNO style relationships in more aggressive fashion because the buying behaviour in the IoT market is slowly shifting towards MVNOs, like Pelion first, because of the ability to offer a broad suite of agreements to single engagement, single platform, even single account manager, right? To be is a key thing for customers as well to build really good relationship in terms of the actual benefits that is MVNOs traditionally have been a lot more agile, faster to adapt, to change in the market, adopt new technologies a lot faster and quicker, and really provide really quick route to market for buyers.

And when you have a rigid model that is typically slower, like an operator is really hard to fit that, put that one size fits all approach to an IoT market in my experience, you can build out an offer, but winning business and satisfying customers is being flexible to move that model to variations of the theme.

So everyone's use case is different. Everyone's requirements are different, maybe in the way they contextualise it for their business and for their vertical.

[00:13:43] Antony: Great! Well, thanks for that to you both. That was a that was a really great discussion. I thought but now moving on to the main topic of the podcast, of course the new IoT eSIM industry standard I mean, opening up, maybe. Niall, you could explain, to the audience, is it and what are the main changes for our audience to consider in broad terms? 

[00:14:05] Niall: Yeah, think, eSIM as a standard has grown up, massively in the last five years. It's become prolific technology that almost every, consumer connected cellular device is trying to utilize now moving forward, you know, Apple, iPhones, et cetera, as well as any long term deployed device trying to, in the IoT sector, utilizing eUICC, which allows it to protect itself from a change in the market by being able to remotely download a new profile and change it from one operator to another. So those two standards have been built independently over the few years and suit two different markets. One really for the machine to machine and IoT market that suits a more dumb device where has less power constraint that doesn't have a user interface on it and then the other. It's more like consumer phone, tablet or laptop that has the ability to interact, with service and select what it wants to download and work with. So it's push versus pull. The reality around that is that, again, if I go to variations of a theme, every device needs something different.

In the IoT market, what we found is that devices want to be able to pull down the profile they need because they're actually the things that are inside the local environment. So rather than having a cloud server saying you are, you've landed in Europe, I would like you to download this profile. The device is saying, Hey, I'm inside Germany.

This is my signal strength. This is what I can see. This is what I need to be able to operate effectively the right model. And the IoT standard is essentially bringing together the best parts of both. M2M and consumer standards that were developed the last 5 to 7 years into new modern standard that will really allow OEMs to deploy a single SKU and manufacture a much more simplified manner to that will allow the devices to have a broader suite of agreements and suite of relationships to take advantage for in more elegant fashion. 

[00:16:04] Antony: Great. Steffen, does anything else come to mind in terms of how IoT services will change in response to this, standard SGP. 32. And are we seeing any changes 

already? If not, when?

[00:16:18] Steffen: I think, yeah, personally, this is quite a pivotal moment in the Development of the ecosystem for IoT, where eSIM is concerned, because, you know, like Niall said, it takes the best of both worlds. So what does that mean exactly? So part of that infrastructure is going be required and used for the IoT specification is going to use, existing, standardised elements of the consumer specification.

Apple and other phone OEMs have really. Catalyse the market for eSIM on the smartphone side of things. So on the operator side, there's been a lot of investment in consumer based eSIM infrastructure to support those over the air downloads. When you can reuse that investment for the IoT specification, it's a lot easier for MNOs to participate.

In the ecosystem where, you know, perhaps they may have been wary before, where the M2M specification was concerned, because the M2M specification is very complex in the way that different components have to be integrated to one another. It doesn't scale very easily. Now this changes with the, the IoT specifications, much less, tech heavy, let's say, so you can focus a lot more easily on commercials and rolling, solutions out into market.

 So it's going become, on the one hand perhaps much more open, competitive environment. And in, in that sense, will mean from the end user perspective, there'll hopefully be a lot more support on the supply side for eSIM. And just going back to the survey there, I think, you know, one of the reasons that, you know, these enterprises, whenever asked them about eSIM were saying, okay, they're not really sure about is because they believe, a lot of operators, are only supporting consumer eSIM profile type.

When that changes, they support consumer as well as the IoT eSIM profile type. You know, then you have a lot more choice in the market. Encourages things and a rising tide lifts all ships, as we say. 

[00:18:20] Antony: And, Niall, so I presume this is going be good thing for service providers. It's going make your job easier. It's going to, I imagine going to make, uh, the job of, um, making the, uh, the customer delighted. Easier, is that correct?

[00:18:37] Niall: Yeah, I mean, it's. To us, it's not as much as a radical shift, but more just a gradual evolution. You know, for Pelion, we've been singing around, utilizing the M2M standard for many years, and we offer, eUICC profiles from many different operators through our platform, you know, so, know, at the moment we're going through a campaign with a known, FTSE 100 company to transition 50,000 devices from one provider to another, and it's got 97 percent 100 percent success rate as they go through their campaigns.

So we've been kind of operating in this model for quite a while. We've been shouting around having the ability for devices to take advantage of eUICC profiles from different, different operators. What I really feel is that it doesn't really fix some of the complexity around the multinational total cost of ownership problem that's different.

I sort talked about before, you know, devices going out into the field and then all of a sudden they pull down profile from a Vodafone or an AT&T They're still two different networks, two operationally different businesses, platforms, support ticketing systems, account managers. So it may simplify the device's experience, but I think from the people who are actually procuring, buying, and using connectivity, it still could remain quite complex.

That's that value proposition that Pelion essentially offers, that we simplify all of this into a single model. So we really want to become, essentially, the hub of as many IoT profiles as possible for devices to connect and interact with so that the users and buyers of our integrate Pelion have that full flexibility from a single managed partner.

And I think that's the sweet spot that the. The connectivity service providers start to naturally fall into to really simplify the user experience as much as the device experience on this. 

[00:20:29] Antony: Niall, again, are the actual, customers, getting wise to this standard and similar standards, are they more, active terms of taking advantage of these technical opportunities now?

[00:20:40] Niall: Yeah, I think it really depends on the vertical and also the maturity of the buyer. So what we find is that. Anyone who's really got a device that they're in contact with physically within a one to two year perspective isn't too concerned about being able to change connectivity profile because they have a, an engineer visiting it.

So you have in the transport sector, you know, passenger WiFi on trains, you know, in theory that that actual rail carriage is going to be visited by an engineer once a week, right? So you can think about changing it from Vodafone to British Telecom EE if you want to by swapping the sim. So it did that sort of level.

Maybe it doesn't, uh, too interesting. But when we work in the oil and gas sector, the remote assets, building management, things where the devices are deployed for five plus years, almost every customer is nearly demanding eSIM or eUICC as standard to be built into the connectivity they're purchasing.

And that's a massive shift in the last two years for us, where we felt we had to educate every single buyer to seeing a crop up in our conversations regularly. As almost a blocking gate that if we don't have this ability, they'll have to go somewhere else. So it's, uh, yeah, it's a really, it's really, really good to see the market shifting towards that.

[00:21:54] Antony: And, Steffen, in terms of what Kaleido sees in market and way, market is shifting and what, Niall has just said there, I mean, have you got anything else to add to that generally? 

[00:22:05] Steffen: Yeah, I mean, there's other things to mention about the specification. I think, you know, the end to end spec, early on was really based around automotive and the demand was driven by, players like automotive OEMs. So vehicle is a specific type device, let's say within IoT, and then of course you had things like LPWAN, so Narrowband IoT, LTE-M come into the market later. The interim specification wasn't really designed to meet those devices requirements. A, they're battery powered, often, they are low bandwidth. And, yeah, they're not always online on the network as well. So some of stuff, there's been change in specifications, altering the transport protocols, to adding things like constrained like, constrained application, protocol, like lightweight end to end, for example.

 Getting rid of SMS as a requirement for executing or activating a campaign. And interesting as well, as an organization, called the TCA, Trusted Connectivity Alliance, they work closely in terms the, the profile construction itself, they've introduced an IoT minimal profile. So reducing the amount of data that needs to be downloaded when you're downloading a profile over air.

So, what we're looking at now is an ecosystem that was before targeting a specific set of devices within IoT. And now the aim is to target pretty much all types devices eSIM across the ecosystem. So, yeah, when we look at things like challenges related to regulatory or commercial constraints, and enterprise buyers get wise to that. eSIM is pretty much de-facto then. Because then you have kind of a fail-safe. Whether you're going use that over the air capability or not is, is dependent on buyer of course. But you will be then safe in knowledge that, okay, have a technology that I can use.

Whether it's now or later down the line. If I run into trouble, um, I don't have to physically go into, uh, some remote location and sort out symptoms. I can use the capability of eSIM to do that.

[00:24:17] Antony: Excellent. Thanks that. Niall,, have you got anything to say in response what Steffen just said that? 

[00:24:21] Niall: No, I completely agree with it, but I think will happen is this is not a new standard to replace everything as well. So, you know, the existing standards will, I mean, I know that we have a, an end to end remote subscription platform. We're probably going be supporting for 20 years because of our customers are there, right?

So the investment into those standards is not, it's not just stopping, you know, so there will be a continual selection of choice that were for the right use cases, the right. Types of devices, there's more flexibility to deploy an eSIM having a more heterogeneous model for deploying devices. 

[00:24:55] Antony: Niall in terms of industry verticals, which ones do you see, taking off the most in the, short medium term as a result, they standard and other things to come, how the industry involves.

[00:25:07] Niall: I think, you know, I'm sure Steffen can answer that from an analyst perspective, he's got all the forecasts, but our actual business, from what we speak to in our market, the industrial oil and gas manufacturing and transport sectors are really key into this because their assets are typically being deployed in hard reach places for long, long periods of time.

We also do have the, loan worker solutions where the manufacturers of like lone worker tablets, et cetera, are looking to simplify how they manufacture and then allow, devices and regions or users be able to download profiles, but not in a consumer style fashion because they want to be able to do it in, well, very specific types of rate plans, communication plans and service plans for the devices so that we see the crossover into the IoT standards.

we also have seen in the wearables session where people have come from a consumer standard, they're looking to understand how to do this for more on mass for, for a business line, for things like, the healthcare market, et cetera.

[00:26:08] Antony: So anything else to add there, Steffen, in terms of what Niall just said there about the market in general and how it's evolving.

[00:26:15] Steffen: In terms of the industry verticals, I mean, historically, we've seen eSIM pretty much take, well, the largest chunk of eSIM, deployments being taken up by automotive and utilities, use cases, but, you know, as I mentioned, Under the new specification, you're more easily able to address, a broader set of devices.

So, when get to a stage where you're putting several tens or several hundreds of devices out into the field, um, then you start to immediately realize that eSIM makes sense when you're distributing a product internationally. And the risk that comes with that if something goes wrong without eSIM is, is very, very high.

Uh, this is a, you know, this was the case before and it will be with the IoT specification. It's just that, you know, some of those barriers we've talked about, would have been addressed in, in some manner or another by new specification. So in that sense, you can certainly see. That a broader set of verticals is going to adopt it.

 But yeah, I mean we're already seeing Like Niall mentioned transportation is a is a critical one asset tracking logistics and so on Um, even cases like retail as well as healthcare as well. Well, I’ll bring you what we're hearing is they're growing right now as well.

[00:27:36] Antony: So Niall, after SGP.32, what other industry standards or protocol change did you expect to see, down the line or what do you know about, or what would you like to see to actually help the market generally? And obviously your customers.

[00:27:52] Niall: So I think SGP.32, it's new standard is really not even being deployed on mass yet. So we haven't even tested it with a production life. So even to say in terms of, you know, that standardization is what next? Unknown, right? But what look at in terms of, um, really driving change the market is the integrated SIM.

So sort of, we look, we're talking about here, eSIM, where we're actually still talking about a physical element being installed onto a device. And I see the. path towards integrated SIM or iSIM, starting to really actually come to real life now. I mean, a lot of people have been talking about it for four or five years.

 But I, you know, embedding that SIM operating system into, an SOC on the physical, uh, processor, essentially on the module really lowers the costs of the hardware, but then also increases the security of the asset where the keys are stored on device. That's a really important piece of puzzle over next three to five years to creating lower cost, highly secure, devices that again will then work with remote subscription provisioning like the IoT standards to be able to change the ownership or change who is connected with as well.

[00:29:06] Antony: So I think a great point to finish at. Thanks for that great discussion. I'm sure are many important and interesting pieces of information the listeners to digest. We'll finish today with some more light-hearted industry developments. Steffen and Niall, a couple of, um, stories of caught your eye or some slight developments. Steffen, there's something about much needed private cellular education.

What can you tell us about that?

[00:29:32] Steffen: Yeah, I mean, there's a lot industry discussion right now around solutions like private LTE or private 5G, certainly a very exciting area in terms of 5G. But, um, yeah, I think it's quite clear there's a long road to go, certainly on the enterprise side. Especially when we consider the level of education that's in the industry.

So, not long ago, I was speaking to a solution provider. And, yeah, they were telling me a story about how they were speaking with a client and, apparently the, the client didn't understand that, devices needed SIM cards in order to connect to the network. And yeah, when we look to the survey, I think we see similar, perhaps less amusing statistics.

But for example, when we asked what the enterprise main concerns about private LTE or 5G, a significant number, over 50 percent of respondents, actually reported were unsure about how secure that deployment be. And, you know, one of the key reasons behind a private network, of course, is that increased security.

They're also mentioning things like, they're unsure. So, roughly half of the respondents, they're saying they're unsure about whether specific features within that private network will be covered. So in the customer perspective there's still long road to go before, I think it was Nokia who, who came up this 14 million different sites, potentially for private networks. So I think a long, long way for that.

[00:31:02] Antony: So, Niall, I mean, Pelion would never make a joke out of, on any it’s end customers. But what would you have to say about what Steffen said there?

[00:31:10] Niall: No, I agree. I mean, was in the U. S. last week, and I think that market is growing far faster rate for private LTE networks. You know, it's, uh, it's just, um, it's just a bigger market in general. So, I mean, that's one reason. But then also people really. Take, manufacturing very seriously and keeping everything as secure as possible.

And I think that the UK European market will catch up slightly behind that. Though, what is quite interesting is actually that the people are asking how they transition their normal connectivity, normal public sims attaching to AT&T and Verizon. How do they then attach their private networks appropriately at the right time?

So in order do that, there has to be some element of control that allows them to be able to attach to them. And that control is actually typically managed by something in the cloud. So is a private network is attached to the cloud for management of this. And I, still think that there's a, a long way to be gone in terms of the operational security of a lot of big players, rather than just saying we sell a private network.

So even, today or yesterday, you know, Johnson controls have announced a massive ransomware attack from security perspective. And to think of someone that is of that size of that, you know, employ 100, 000 people can be selling and deploying private may be compromised. And those the guys that may be running your network is quite, is still quite, you know, daunting to lot of people.

So think in running, running a network 24 by 7, hitting as near as 100 percent SLA you can, the operators in public space have been doing this day in day out for many years. And I think trying to mimic that in private sector, private space, um, could be quite challenging for lot people. 

[00:32:54] Antony: Absolutely fair comment. I've got to mention the fact that, when this podcast, appears, there'll be transcript under it, so people can go through with a fine, fine tooth comb and find any mistakes I've made on the podcast, but not from my guests, I'm sure. I've got thank them for their wonderful participation today, Niall Strachan from Pelion, and Steffen Sorrell from Kaleido Intelligence.

How can the listeners get in touch with you, Niall?

[00:33:21] Niall: Oh, meanwhile, you can go to Pelion. com and you'll, you can navigate yourself through there, but, or find me on LinkedIn. It's spelled Niall, but it's Nile. So I thank you very much my parents for that one. Um, but yeah!

[00:33:34] Antony: And Steffen, how can the listeners contact you? 

[00:33:37] Steffen: Either via our websites, kaleidointelligence.com or find me on LinkedIn as well. 

[00:33:43] Antony: Okay, well that just leads me to thank you all for listening in and bye bye from me and goodbye from my esteemed guest. Thanks lot, bye, bye now. 

[00:33:52] Steffen: Thanks! 

[00:33:53] Niall: Thanks Antony, cheers!