Win-win for connected healthcare, as industrial IoT tests the use of ChatGPT

The Trending Tech Podcast returns to the topical issues of Connected Healthcare and IoT’s role in Industry. We hear from two experts, Jash Bansidhar and Michael Wernaert from Advantech, how automation is improving patient outcomes, including through robotic surgery’s greater accuracy, faster patient release dates and lower care costs. We ask how ‘co-created’ solutions on open source platforms can benefit hospitals and healthcare OEMs? And can OpenAI’s ChatGPT enable industry’s digital transformations? There’s even time to see how ESG is creating an intelligent, sustainable planet. Not bad in half an hour. 

Transcript

Jeremy Cowan  00:04

Hi, and Welcome to Episode 32 of the Trending Tech Podcast. And this time we’re looking at a few issues, ranging from Connected Healthcare, through ESG – that’s the increasingly important Environmental, Social & Corporate Governance – and finally including IoT’s road ahead. So, thank you for joining us for today’s …. Sometimes Serious, Sometimes Light-hearted look at Digital Transformation for Enterprises.   

A warm welcome to you, wherever we find you today. I’m Jeremy Cowan, co-founder of the telecoms and technology sites IoT-dash-Now.com, VanillaPlus.com, and TheEE.ai, which covers Artificial Intelligence for The Evolving Enterprise. And a warm welcome, too, to our two guests today who are experts in these areas. The first guest is Jash Bansidhar, EU general manager for Advantech, who are our sponsors today. I’ll be talking to Jash later about technology milestones, what we can expect in the year ahead, plus the impact on technology of Environmental, Social & Corporate Governance. Jash, welcome …. 

Jash Bansidhar  01:18

Thank you, Jeremy. Nice to be here.

Jeremy Cowan  01:20

Great to have you! And our 2nd guest is Michael Wernaert, Advantech’s senior sales manager. In a minute, he and I will be chatting on IoT-enabled Connected Healthcare. Michael, welcome and particularly as you’ve stepped in at short notice. I'm grateful.

Michael Wernaert  01:35

Pleasure to be here, Jeremy. 

Jeremy Cowan  01:37

Thank you to Advantech, who are our sponsors, as I say, and while I think of it, congratulations to them for a major anniversary I hear, because the company was founded 40 years ago, that's a heck of a milestone for you guys. Now, before we go any further, we always like to check the horizon in technology with our guests. So, let's take a quick look at two serious tech news stories you found. And later on we're gonna have a bit of a look for an escape in our closing section called What The Tech? where we'll discuss a couple of tech news stories that either amused or amazed us. Okay, Jash, coming to you first, what serious tech news have you come across?

Jash Bansidhar  02:21

Well, I was talking a few weeks ago with my kids about their thesis that they're preparing. And one of them came with ChatGPT. And I was astonished that this tool is available, and giving also some headache to universities to make sure that these tools are used or not abused. Let's say that. So, I’d like to talk about that a little bit more later on.

Jeremy Cowan  02:52

Yeah, can you explain what ChatGPT actually does, briefly?

Jash Bansidhar  02:57

Basically, it takes over the job of a writer or journalist, a technical writer. We at Advantech have a lot of technical information to share to the audience and ChatGPT could help us to reduce the workload and at least to make a basis to communicate to the market. And students can do that too. Right? I mean, they can use that to write a thesis about some specific topics. And the system automatically generates the text quite on a high level. So, that it is very difficult for normally to understand if this is written by a human being, or by a chatbot in this case.

Jeremy Cowan  03:45

Yeah, well, we'll definitely come to that later. And I think there's another story that has been catching your eye particularly, you saw something on Microsoft and Viasat. What was that?

Jash Bansidhar  03:58

Yeah, it was incredible to read the news that they are releasing internet connectivity to areas who don't have the infrastructure yet, through satellite and existing hardware, infrastructure, all at once. For me that was a trigger that these two giants are helping the community, the new generation, to inform them, to educate them, to prepare them for a better life. And for me, that gives a sign to make the world more transparent. So that all the major challenges that we have with misinformation, miscommunication and manipulation of information towards community and citizens can be reduced by this initiative. So, for me, this is a very appealing example how these global giants are contributing. 

Jeremy Cowan  04:59

Yes, this was an announcement from both Microsoft and Viasat. And both of them, their news was picked up by a lot of news sites. So, we'll put links on this into the transcript that people can follow up if they want to. (https://www.iotglobalnetwork.com/iotdir/2022/12/16/microsoft-viasat-partner-to-deliver-internet-access-to-underserved-communities-globally-41247/ ) But you're right. It's such an incredible step forward, if and when it's successful. And there's no reason to believe it won't be, it seems to be a new collaboration through Microsoft’s Airband Initiative to increase internet access for about 5 million people. Is that right?

Jash Bansidhar  05:32

Yeah, five plus five. The first five are from Africa areas. And another amount similar will be more towards Mid America, South America.

Jeremy Cowan  05:45

I think that comes around 2025. And from what I hear, this is just part of the plan, by expanding Airband in Africa and Latin America, Viasat and Microsoft expect to connect a total of, I think they said 40 million new internet users globally. And they're going to do that by using available technologies already. So fibre optics, fixed wireless access, TV white spaces, even Citizens Band radio, you know, an inspired use of available capacity, coming to a variety of countries like DR Congo and Nigeria, Angola, that really don't have the kind of internet access that we just take for granted in more developed economies. 

Jash Bansidhar  06:33

Indeed, indeed. I think it's a big step ahead to open up also the market for those countries. And hopefully, it can be price-effective, so that there will not be a big barrier for citizens to connect to this. I think there's still a lot of work to do there, butlet's say the announcement is opening up great ideas, great initiatives, also to develop those territories.

Jeremy Cowan  07:06

Because it's not just the communications that is lacking in some of these areas, but you know, reliable power supplies aren't available. So, I think quite a lot of work is going into ensuring that sustainable energy supplies are being put into these areas. And I think Last Mile connection is talked about being delivered through local internet service providers. There's so many moving parts in this, it's a positive story but it's going to be extremely difficult to put all this together.

Jash Bansidhar  07:36

Indeed, Jeremy. I think we don't realise the benefits in the Western European society that we have, with this transparency of connectivity. Just everyday part of our life, many rural areas don't have this. And this initiative will accelerate the digital transformation of the world and helping citizens to develop, study, educate themselves, and economies to grow. So, this transparency, creating this communication shield with information and communication technology visible today, that is a great example for me. 

Jeremy Cowan  08:16

It really is. And we don't always get to trumpet the most positive stories, there are some things that you know, we have to report that aren't always quite so encouraging. So, I don't want to go too misty-eyed about it because this is a commercial decision, after all, but kudos, I think to the partners for the hard work they're putting in. As I say, we'll post the links to today's stories in the transcript. Michael, what serious news caught your eye?

Michael Wernaert  08:44

I found this article where it talks about robotic surgery helped to save the life of a Scottish woman after she received a bowel cancer diagnosis. And the robot is called DaVinci Robotic System. To me and to many people this sounds very futuristic. But I was positively surprised to read that more than 60 doctors across NHS Scotland alone (the NHS is the UK’s state-run National Health Service. Ed) are trained for the use of this robotic surgery machine, with 15 machines in operation today. And I chose this story because I think it's just a great example that demonstrates how innovation and technology in the healthcare domain can really make a difference for patients today already. 
 
Robotic surgery has already shown huge improvements in patient care but also in recovery times. I was surprised to read about that, how beneficial the recovery time is after robotic surgery in comparison with more traditional surgery. And that's just a very, of course, positive story with a positive end and I really hope and I truly believe that many patients will still benefit from such equipment in the future. 

Jeremy Cowan  10:00

This is just the kind of good news story that we do enjoy reporting as well from the Internet of Things. I was intrigued to see that it was the woman herself, who elected to have the surgery carried out by a robot, obviously directed by a surgeon. And she seems to have done it for very good reasons, as you say the robotic systems four arms can hold a camera and various surgical instruments. And it gives a greater range of movements than any human surgeon can manage, which in itself is pretty astonishing. Instead of standing over the patient, the surgeon is managing the operation from a console!

Michael Wernaert  10:41

It sounds futuristic, but it has happened and with great results.

Jeremy Cowan  10:46

It's amazing. And following the procedure and then chemotherapy, I read that the patient is now in remission from her cancer. 

Michael Wernaert  10:54

Yeah! 

Jeremy Cowan  10:54

Yeah, it's an astonishing piece of work. 

Michael Wernaert  10:56

It is. 

Jeremy Cowan  10:57

Gentlemen, thank you both for those stories. We've talked about other people's work, I'd like to hear a bit more about yours. Jash coming to you, the tech sector changes every 40 days, never mind over the last 40 years since Advantech was founded. So, I looked up what was happening in the tech sector 40 years ago, back in 1983. And it was quite instructive. It was the year that the ARPANET changed to use Internet Protocol. So, I think very few people knew it at the time, but it was effectively the year the internet was born. And the Apple Lisa, the first commercial personal computer from Apple to have a graphical user interface and a mouse, that was launched in January 1983, as well. So, what was Advantech’s initial offering?

Jash Bansidhar  11:49

Yeah, well, Jeremy, it's a long time ago, with these examples that you mentioned it reminds me that with our offering at that time, started to automate the testing processes with our automatic test systems. That was the first solution that three engineers created after they started up their own company from a small area and a kitchen, and they started to build these automatic test systems to check the quality and functionality of electronic products which were produced by them. And some of the products already had an Ethernet connection, even that was very unique in the industry, because industry was first against Ethernet. Later on, two years later Advantech’s team decided to build data acquisition cards, which is transforming physical information to electronic data. That was quite a step ahead. If you are able to combine this in the automatic test system, suddenly, you can deliver to factories a solution where manual work can be automated for a part. And that idea by creating a system led the three founders to think about industrial computing, because there were not too much industry-related systems with longevity, suitable for harsh environments, because in the industry, you need systems that are form fit functionality for the next five to 10 years. While standard computing were not normal those years and could not withstand this harsh environment. 
 
 So, the three founders thought, OK, this is the opportunity for us to introduce the industrial computer. And that was in 1990 so seven years after the company was founded. And today, you know, Jeremy, we have a market share of industrial computers of 41%. So definitely, we are far ahead as a leader in this technology. And nice to mention that two founders are still active in the Advantech company. One is our CEO, K.C. Liu, and one is on the board of directors, Chaney Ho, so they are still there after 40 years to drive, to strategise on the business. Another milestone I want to mention from an Advantech company in Taiwan, which is an island where the market quickly was saturated. They decided in 1987 to globalise. The first office was opened in the US, and a year later in China, and here in Europe. We opened our first Advantech office in Germany in 1993. So, in Europe we are 30 years present here, while globally we are 40 years active in the market.

Jeremy Cowan  15:05

So, around that the Internet of Things has been evolving really fast. How have you been preparing for that change?

Jash Bansidhar  15:15

Well, important is to understand that the fundament of the Advantech organisation is based on the history, and identity of our history. And our history set is computing, it is information communication technology, and it is helping to digitalise the work to optimise processes, and so on. And the Internet of Things mindset happened in 2010, when our company decided to change our mission statement to enabling an intelligent planet. 2010 doesn't seem far away, it’s only 12 - 13 years from now but at that time, the terminology of ‘Internet of Things’ was not so common. Yeah, only some people in this domain talked about this Ethernet, the internet was already there more for commercial applications, but definitely not for the industry or smart cities, as it is today. 
 
 So, when our CEO posted the vision of enabling an intelligent planet, and Advantech is contributing to this vision with its information and communication technology, that was a very motivating moment for the whole company, because suddenly, we were able to see the scope and the offering of our technology to make the world a better place. And from there with the intelligent planet, we started to evolve and grow in our market capitalisation. Because this vision caused also the innovation more in IoT technologies, including the software, the Platform-as-a-Service software, in Advantech it’s called WISE PaaS, which was launched in 2016. And with this hardware portfolio, and this middleware of WISE IoT software, Advantech was able to supply the industry and to system integrators in smart city, let's say as a one-stop-shop, all the needs to digitalise their application. And that is where we are today. And I can talk more about this in detail later on, Jeremy.

Jeremy Cowan  17:42

Michael, turning to you, looking at one specific area of this intelligent planet that Jash was referencing, we see and we've already mentioned connected healthcare. But to the public, they probably think of this mostly as a smartphone app. I imagine the healthcare benefit is far greater in creating smart hospitals and connected medical equipment. How big is this market in your view?

Michael Wernaert  18:15

For us it's massive and with connected healthcare, we mean the complete IT infrastructure in hospitals and care institutions. And it can be anything from a patient monitor to an intelligent ward system. And we believe it can improve the full patient experience by providing an interactive infrastructure within the hospital. I personally believe that connected healthcare will decrease the time a patient stays in hospital, and it will make nursing more efficient, resulting in decreasing pressure and costs for our healthcare institutes, which is a big topic right now. So, I really believe it will be a win-win for both the patients and also the healthcare system. And to get back to your question, I believe that the global opportunity is to shift healthcare from a healing to a preventing approach in any aspect. And this means moving from nursing to preventive monitoring and screening of patients, for example, through driving a healthier lifestyle.

Jeremy Cowan  19:13

That makes perfect sense. So, how can the IoT sector integrate so many different devices that may be affecting healthcare and preventive medicine? How do they bring all of these different devices from competing vendors into an environment where the hospital can make them function?

Michael Wernaert  19:37

As Jash very well explained, Advantech traditionally started as a hardware manufacturer, and although our technology focus on services are expanding, we realise we cannot provide all the essentials by ourselves. So, Advantech believes in what we call the ‘Co-creation model’. We partner up and we build collaborations with other domain players to provide integrated solutions in the medical field for the patients. And we do that in other fields of other domains as well. But by doing this, we combine the best of both the IoT and the healthcare technology domain. And furthermore, in a connected world, we believe in open protocols and open source platforms. So hospitals or healthcare OEMs (original equipment manufacturers) will be able to integrate multiple vendors or multiple solutions into their environment.

Jeremy Cowan  20:27

What are the biggest recent advances through that kind of approach that you've seen in connected healthcare? Is it in things like patient care management or drug administration? Is it in staff optimisation? Or, I don't know, something else entirely?

Michael Wernaert  20:43

Yeah, but I think the examples you give make very well sense, and the healthcare industry predicts its biggest deficit in human resources. And with that, I simply mean a lack of nursing staff or surgeons. And our equipment is mainly designed and built to lower the pressure and increase the speed of handling of the patients, with a lower error rate through automation. That means automated handling, dispensing and administration. This simply means that fewer hospital staff will be able to handle an increased number of patients in a better way.

Jeremy Cowan  21:19

That's an astonishing prospect for the future. If we can be doing far more with less I know that in this country, in the UK where I'm speaking to you from, it's a constant concern that we've put more and more money into healthcare and seem to get less and less quality from it. We already heard about robotic surgery and I think anybody who's watched our pages on IoT Now will have seen promising stories about things like IoT-enabled surgery in India and drone delivery of medicines in Uganda. Should we be focusing more on IoT impacting more conventional areas of healthcare to benefit a larger number of people?

Michael Wernaert  22:05

From my point of view, both options are on the table. And we should focus on both conventional and also remote healthcare applications; I think both can benefit from technology. And on one hand, in the conventional healthcare environments, such as the recovery area, we see that a simple patient monitoring system, respiratory and vital sign measurements can make a huge impact on the patient experience. Patients will significantly benefit from real-time monitoring, and enabling the healthcare system to go from reactive to proactive care, which drastically reduces response time to a patient that is in need of care. And in addition, we also see a change in common diseases moving from, for example, cancer to cardiovascular diseases or brain neural network diseases, meaning there is an increased need for longer patient care treatments where our integrated and connected solutions can relieve the healthcare system by enabling remote surgery or monitoring again.

Jeremy Cowan  23:08

Jash, turning back to you if I may, looking at the bigger picture of care for our community and our environment, no company these days can afford to ignore its environmental, social and corporate governance responsibilities. Can you tell us about your experience of ESG activities and what you're doing?

Jash Bansidhar  23:32

Yeah. First, I want to underline that ESG is a company strategy to grow, to contribute to a sustainable and good basis for the people of Advantech and the community. So, ESG is not new for Advantech. It is now already covered on the three major pillars of ESG, according to new legislations, but corporate social responsibility was always the strategy of the company. But to formalise things more and to prepare for the next professionalisation of our company, we said let’s take the ESG strategy to build three major strategic improvements, which is the first one to enrich the community. Because we have a lot of talents, we have a lot of knowledge that we want to share to the people around us and to enable an intelligent but also a sustainable planet. And also work with innovators with the young generation, like universities, like internship programmes all over the globe, to popularise our Internet of Things solutions. And last but not least, the third pillar is we need to make sure that our operation is a green operation, of course, things like carbon dioxide reduction, energy management, which is very relevant nowadays, you know. We decided to invest and speed up the implementation to reduce our carbon footprint, not only into production, but also how we produce our products, and how we ship our products.
 
 So, these initiatives have been built in a project, which is governed by our ESG organisation within the Advantech Board, who is aiming for the next 10 years, to at least be represented in 2025, on the Dow Jones Sustainability Index, because this index will also confirm the commitment that Advantech has established in the strategy. And also towards 2030-2040, we want to move almost all our, let's say production based on renewable energies and reduce drastically, our carbon footprint. And that will also make Advantech as a green operation. 

Jeremy Cowan  23:32

Jash, Michael has already referenced the co-creation model, and I take on board what you've just said, about, you know, improving your footprint. These days, so much of what is achieved in IoT, and in enterprise digital transformations isn't achieved by one company as achieved by partner ecosystems. How do you go about managing partnerships and client relationships that are with huge organisations where you have to align your policies? 

Jash Bansidhar  26:54

Yeah, so first, I want to underline when we started 40 years ago, and we started to expand our business overseas, we installed partners. So, with partnerships with reseller partners with distribution partners, we got to experience that collaboration is creating an acceleration and innovation base to grow the business. Clearly, partnerships are part of our DNA. And this DNA we have used when we implemented the new business model, we call it a co-creation business model. We launched this business model, around seven years ago, when Advantech had a portfolio of hardware and we created middleware, we realised that with the technology alone, we will not be able to show end users the benefit of the Internet of Things. In our case, it is the Industrial Internet of Things, because we focus in industry and smart cities. 
 
 To make the step to solutions, we decided to launch the co-creation strategy, where we work with system integrators. And we co-develop and we co-sell, ready to use industrial IoT applications for specific verticals. You can imagine that the medical domain has different competence than factory domains or domains in a railway or energy generation. So, these specialised system integrators, we had those already in our customer base buying hardware, but now we started to team up with them, we partner with them to co-create applications with their domain competence, and our technology and middleware so that the end user could quickly deploy an IoT application to understand if this justifies the return on investment, and confirm that this proof of value can bring the benefits that they are looking for. So that is the stage that we are in now today in Advantech, where we have developed co-creation system integrators across the countries, because the business is still very local in Europe. And with this footprint we were able to be quite close to the end user to help them transform their operations to more digital business.

Jeremy Cowan  29:39

Jash, we talked about the past a bit, we've talked a lot about the present. I'm gonna ask you to dig out your crystal ball now. What are your expectations for IoT and the road ahead in the short and medium term?

Jash Bansidhar  29:51

First, Advantech realised that the strategy itself will not sustain if you don't have a budget to help system integrators to make this transformation together with us, because we've seen that many system integrators are quite traditional from the operations technology, or still from the information technology. So, the OT-IT world is still quite separate, unless we as Advantech, who is one of the leading IoT drivers in industry can bring this together with our edge hardware, software and information and communication technology platforms. And to enable that, Advantech launched an ecosystem fund, that is an amount of money around US$50 million, that is being invested in Europe and the US to establish co-creation strategic partnerships. That is one important step that we have implemented and are working on for the next five to 10 years. 
 
 The second one is, we believe that the way we are organised today, we need to prepare for the next wave of growth. Advantech has been growing in the past decade, quite strong with double digit, except during the pandemic. But then, when that ended up two years ago, one and a half years ago, we rebounded very fast, realising more than US$2 billion on revenue streams. But to grab the next wave of growth with the solution-oriented business model in this co-creation, we need to strengthen our local organisations. It means in Europe we need to build a stronger technical integration, education support infrastructure, more professional back office system services as the first step. And the second is, we need to specialise as an organisation much more in the domain that we've been working on with creating sector-specific, go-to-market teams so that we understand much better the challenges that our customers are facing, and bring this back to our R&D (research and development) and ecosystem partners so that we can establish the fit-for-purpose solution on an effective way out of the box. And this will help expand Advantech to accelerate, I hope for the next 40 years of our existence.

Jeremy Cowan  32:38

Well, I think that's going to be instructive for quite a number of companies to listen to. Okay, gents, let's unwind for a moment and see What The Tech has amazed or amused us lately. Jash, you go first, what have you seen? You talked earlier about your interest in ChatGPT? Can you expand on that?

Jash Bansidhar  32:56

Yeah, well, reading that I was thinking how ChatGPT can help our company to accelerate the digital transformation of our own business model, because we are talking about helping end users. But we have within Advantech also an established business model that needs to be digitalised. And I think, in the past few years during the pandemic, like many other companies, we realise that the digital transformation needs to speed up seriously, because if we want to stay competitive, and we want to keep serving our customer with state-of-the-art services, our operational excellence needs to come to a higher level. We implemented several IT tools to help us to optimise operations. And that is a process that will continue in the next decade, for sure. So ChatGPT and similar apps will help Advantech to become more professional. 
 
 We also need to realise that these kind of AI-related applications that we see every day in medical, in industry, in smart cities, it's like becoming a standard that without AI, you are not any more able to give scenarios for decision-making or optimise your operations. It’s becoming like second nature for people. And we need to be careful that AI will not take over the common sense that we still have as human beings, which is not an Advantech topic alone, it’s a global issue that we need to address but I think as Advantech was a provider of these technologies we need to be sensitive of how far we are able to manage and secure the usage of this kind of innovation, So AI, and ChatGPT specifically, will also help Advantech to make the right decisions for their business innovation.

Jeremy Cowan  35:14

Yeah. Michael, has anything in the news amazed or amused you?

Michael Wernaert  35:19

Well, I was reading this list of predictions on Twitter from a guy named Paul Fairie. And this is a list of predictions that were made in 1923. And it's a little bit of a light topic about the year 2023, so, 100 years ago. And some of these predictions were pretty accurate. I mean, for example, the life expectancy, or the population of the US. I'm sure that you and many of the listeners would like it to be like that. One of the predictions was that the workday would only take four hours by now. So, no more hours work by 2023. (Laughter) And I think that there's not a lot of listeners out there that can relate to that these days. So I think that was quite funny to read. (Laughter)

Jeremy Cowan  36:17

Well, if the workday memo was sent round, saying maximum four hours per day, it sure didn't reach me yet. (Laughter)

Michael Wernaert  36:26

It didn't reach me and I can talk to Jash later on if we can make that work. But I'm pretty sure we cannot yet. (Laughter)

Jeremy Cowan  36:33

And I keep hearing that things like ChatGPT can write articles for us, so as an editor and journalist, I've got to say, I'm toast. (Laughter)

Jash Bansidhar  36:44

I think, Jeremy, this tool will help us to spend more time to create a higher costs. You know, that there's a positive thing we haven't yet ….

Jeremy Cowan  36:58

Yeah, I'll definitely be able to fill my day, but it won't be what I'm doing now. And Michael, life expectancy, was that one of the predictions that I think they were talking about 100 years? 

Michael Wernaert  37:09

Yeah, there was one article that talked about 100 years, but also one about 300 years. (Laughter) I've watched a documentary the other day that really talks about the younger people right now. That generation may never die, because healthcare becomes so good that people will actually be able to regenerate. So it is quite an interesting topic, but there's many, many different thoughts about that.

Jeremy Cowan  37:47

Well, my wife's already heard all my stories. So, the thought of me sticking around for 300 years is probably filling her with gloom. (Laughter) But 300 years is quite a lifespan for any of us. And certainly my pension won't stretch that far. Michael, fantastic story. And of course, if you our listeners have seen something in the tech news that you'd like to share, then please email me via our website or message me on LinkedIn at Jeremy Cowan. That's C-O-W-A-N. Okay, before we go, let me say a big thank you. First to Jash Bansidhar. Thank you, Jash.

Jash Bansidhar  38:24

Thanks, Jeremy. It was a pleasure.

Jeremy Cowan  38:26

It's been great. And how can listeners find you to discuss this further?

Jash Bansidhar  38:30

I'm on LinkedIn, people can connect. I will reach out to them.

Jeremy Cowan  38:34

That'd be great. And our thanks also to Michael Wernaert, it's been great to have you with us, Michael.

Michael Wernaert  38:39

Likewise, it was my pleasure to be here and I look forward meeting with you and the listeners in the future through LinkedIn as well. 

Jeremy Cowan  38:48

So, our thanks to all of you. And don’t forget, you can subscribe to the Trending Tech Podcast wherever you found us today. So, it's a High Five to our growing audience around the world. There’s now 6,500 of you worldwide. Meanwhile, keep checking IoT-Now.com, VanillaPlus.com and TheEE.ai, where you’re going to find Tech News, plus Videos, Top-Level Interviews, Event Reviews and loads more. And join us again soon for another Trending Tech Podcast looking at Enterprise Digital Transformations. Bye for Now!